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User talk:IcarusPhoenix
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One other suggestion: If you're going to make comments on talk pages or make other sorts of comments, please be sure to sign them with four tildes (~~~~) to paste in your user name and the date/time of the comment. If you have any questions, please feel free to post them in a member's talk page or the community portal. Thanks, and once again, welcome to Memory Beta! Please leave a message on my talk page if I can help with anything! -- Captainmike (Talk) 17:31, 2009 October 4 Grand Admiral Please do not edit to remove content when the correctness of that content is under discussion. Thanks. I'm reverting the relevant articles pending resolution of the discussion. I look forward to our consideration and resolution of this issue. --Columbia clipper 02:36, August 1, 2010 (UTC) :::Continue this discussion at Forum:Presuming titles, ranks and insignia in licensed character articles -- Captain MKB 13:26, August 1, 2010 (UTC) My position and sourcing :::Moveld from Forum:Presuming titles, ranks and insignia in licensed character articles -- Captain MKB While Turner is never referred to as C-in-C and it is therefore an assumption that he held that position, my understanding is that that assumption was made based upon a statement that he was the "senior officer" in Starfleet (something I have been unable to confirm). Based on that alone, the assumption that Stephen Turner was in fact the Starfleet C-in-C at the time is fairly reasonable. The problem comes when that assumption is expanded beyond this one character. Certainly in the case of any officer who held the position before or after the period in question this is an unreasonable leap-of-logic, and even in the case of Smillie this seems... presumptuous. At issue is the writings of Robert Fletcher, the costume designer for Star Treks II-IV, who made a very clear system of ranks and divisions that canon Trek doesn't really contradict - the exception being Valeris, of course, whose uniform is widely considered to be a pretty massive error, anyway and I think can be disregarded. My position is that if nothing on Fletcher's notes has been contradicted in regards to rank insignia, can we not accept that the names he gave to his own work are probably the correct ones? It is from Fletcher that we get the phrase "Fleet Admiral serving as Starfleet Commander-in-Chief", and he uses it to describe both the sleeve braid (which differs from regular "Fleet Admiral" only in the addition of a fifth "lozenge", as opposed to other rank increases, which add more backing materiel, making them ever-wider) and the third gold stripe on the trousers. The insignia pin, which as I've stated is the only canon measure of rank we can be sure of, does not change. Therefore, I consider "Grand Admiral" to be an anomalous rank on DC's part, just as their "Ensign First Class" and FASA's "Force Admiral". For that matter, what's to say that "Grand Admiral" is even a rank? There is a note on the page for Colonel West that mentions the British tradition of calling any regimental commander "Colonel" regardless of actual rank. There is also the tradition of calling any ship commander "Captain", even without the grade. Why can't "Grand Admiral" simply be dismissed as a title? Besides, if one looks at Turner's picture, his rank insignia is the four arrowhead insignia that DC uses as an Admiral and lacks the circling wreath of a Fleet Admiral (it should be noted that DC uses incorrect flag ranks pretty consistently, using three arrowheads around a shield as a Vice Admiral and three around a triangle as a Rear Admiral). For that matter, he lacks the gold trim of a flag officer, so his uniform is demonstrably wrong anyway; why must his rank automatically be correct? As far as I'm concerned, even if it is a rank, the only Grand Admiral we know of is Stephen Turner, and it is a capital error to assume that every other C-in-C must therefore hold the same rank as someone we can't even confirm was the C-in-C, especially in light of a whole lot of other information. For the record, Spike compiled Fletcher's works quite well some years ago, and for the most part, that's where I've been referring. To provide everyone else with those sources, they are here: *2378-2350's Rank insignia, sleeve trim, pants trim, and notations *A chart comparing the "correct" Fletcher ranks with a whole wealth of incorrect ranking systems *Division chart, incorporating Fletcher's notes on departments, divisions, and duties --IcarusPhoenix 20:50, August 1, 2010 (UTC) :I agree with you that Turner's exact position is unclear, and that the assuming his rank and position across to other personnel is incorrect. :However, I think you missed my introduction on the forum page. That wasn't a discussion of the history of Fletcher's rank insignia, which are canon and accepted here. I'm very familiar with the Fletcher/Rodis/ insignia and they aren't an issue that I'm aware of, despite your statement. This page is here to discuss how we apply ranks and titles to licensed characters, and nothing about questioning canon-sourced rank insignia has to do with the discussion at hand. We'll start a separate forum if there are more issues here you need us to read. The forum is simply a question of whether or not we apply unspecified ranks and insignia to officers based on presumption, which is an issue you and I agree completely on -- Jellico and others do not fall under the grand admiral banner. :Also, not an issue I can see, is the likelihood of disregarding the DC Comics or FASA ranks. They are established in a licensed source, which means they are fair game on this wiki. I moved this text here because if you start arguing that, a very much separate debate, that discussion will not reach a conclusion. -- Captain MKB 21:23, August 1, 2010 (UTC)